Dear Mr. Maunders,

Many thanks for your e-mail and your interest in Almost Heaven.

As you may have surmised if you've seen our "Build Your Own Hot Tub System" interface, we are your one stop source for everything you need, and after over two decades in this business (we made our own wooden tubs and acrylic spas here in West Virginia for over 20 years), there probably isn't anything we haven't seen in the way of a homemade hot tub.

You'll be happy to hear that concrete or stone is probably the most common material that's used, and we've lost count of how many of these for which we've supplied equipment.

As for the support system, it's exactly the same as it would be for any other type of vessel (such as wood or acrylic), with one exception, and it's most important to plan ahead in this respect.

If you're going to have true hydrotherapy, you need to be able to mix air with the water right at the jet nozzle. Because of the extra thick walls of the concrete or stone, you need a special jet to do this. It involves a pipe inside a pipe, the center one carrying air to be mixed with the water at the jet nozzle.

The "pipe inside the pipe" is all standard PVC pipe. We give you what you need for either end. What's important is that you cast your concrete or stone work with these 2.5" Schedule 40 pipe nipples anywhere that you'd like to put a jet.

You also need to plan ahead in this respect for a couple of drains in the pad you pour for the floor of the vessel, as well as a spot in the wall for a skimmer, should you want to have one of these. The same is true should you desire to have some sort of underwater lighting. These are the most important aspects of preplanning a thick walled spa. Anything else can follow later.

If you'd like, I can send you a graphic of how the jets work, along with some wholesale pricing and more information about some of the choices you have with respect to features with these jets.

Of course, it will be our privilege to supply you with everything else you need for your support system, too, at competitive pricing and with the competent support that you'll need to pull it all together. Moreover, shipping to the U.K. is no problem, as we send goods there on a monthly basis, nor is it a problem to supply 50 Hz. electrical equipment, such as you need.

To start, please give us an idea of the layout and size you have in mind. How big will this vessel be? How far apart do you plan to place the vessel and equipment? Will the latter be outdoors? Are you planning to heat with gas or electric? In the case of the latter, how much power is available for the heater?

Please do not hesitate to contact us with your further details and questions. We look forward to your earliest reply, and to the opportunity to provide you with sales and support.

Best Regards,

Art Glick
Almost Heaven

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your latest e-mail.

I'm not surprised to hear that you can't handle the full 11 kW load of our standard heater. We see this time and time again in Europe. The manufacturer makes a 5.5 kW version of this heater, and that would normally be the least we would recommend for a vessel of your size (at an assumed depth of only 32", we figure you have about 650 gallons to heat).

Unfortunately, if the 20 Amps you have must supply both the pump and heater, then 3.0 kW is the largest heater you can handle, and I have serious reservations in this regard.

I'm assuming that this tub will be in an unheated space, and I should warn you that you'll struggle with even 5.5 kW of heat, if only just in the very coldest parts of the winter.

It would be important to assure that all of your plumbing is adequately insulated, and it goes without saying that you should make sure the tub is covered when not in use.

5.5 kW of heat, and perhaps even 3.0 kW, will be enough to maintain the temperature of the system while covered, even in sub zero (Fahrenheit) temperatures, but on such cold days, don't expect to be running the tub uncovered all afternoon with 5.5 kW of heat (or for more than about 10 or 20 minutes with only 3.0 kW), as the heater just won't be able to keep up with all the surface loss.

Hot tub use in the winter is something with which we're familiar, being at 3000' elevation and subject to sub zero temperatures every winter. The coldest I've seen is -28 F (-33 C)!

I would suggest that you see whatever you can do to come up with a few more Amps and let me know whether we should spec a 5.5 or a 3.0 kW heater.

Regarding the jets, you need a set that can accommodate the thick walls you'll build, and this is referred to as a Gunite Jet Set.

Gunite is a concrete type material sprayed onto a form to make a spa or swimming pool, but these jets can also be used for any other thick wall application, such as concrete or concrete block. They are probably about the only type that will work for your application and still deliver a true, hydrotherapy action.

Attached are a couple of graphics detailing the installation of the Gunite style jets. As you'll see, for each jet you'll have to supply your own through the wall rigid 2.5" and 1" PVC pipes (one for water and a one for air, the latter inside the former), as that's the way that the jet accomplishes the mixing of air and water at the jet nozzle.

You'll also need to select a jet internal (several choices are available - see below), and you'll have to decide whether or not to use a niche, which is sold separately. If the interior of your vessel will be tile or stone, you can probably dispense with the niche. If the interior will be natural concrete, plaster or gunite, then you should plan to purchase the niche.

As for the jet internals, there are enough choices to make your head spin! There are the standard Poly internals, deluxe Poly internals, and recently the manufacturer introduced the Power internals. I've attached two graphics that show the standard and deluxe Poly internals, and the Power internals can be seen on one of the other two pictures that also show the jet installation.

We would recommend that you use the jet body assembly that has the TEE style connections for water and air, since this makes it much easier to connect one jet to the next. Therefore, for each jet, as shown in the attached, you'll need one jet body (our # 55-270-2382, your cost $13.96 each), one threaded retaining ring (our # 55-270-2365, $2.53 each), a jet gasket (55-270-1267, $.53 each), your choice of internal and the appropriate wall fitting to match, and then the niche if you need it.

Please note that subject to availability, the wall fittings for this assembly, as well as all but one of the internals, are available in either white, black or gray. All of the part numbers and prices given here are for white, however, and this is the most likely color to find in stock in our warehouse. The gray and black could possibly be special order. It depends on your choices.

Should you decide you need them, the niche is also available in all three of the same colors as the wall fittings and internals, except for the Massage Deluxe, which is made only in white. The cost of the Poly niche is $5.91 each, and our number on this item (in white) is 55-270-2340. The cost of the Power niche is $9.36 each, and our number on this item (in white) is 55-270-2300.

As you can see if you study the attached graphics, there are two wall fittings available, depending on whether you select a Poly or a Power internal. The Poly wall fitting is our # 55-270-2350 (in white, your cost $4.58), and the Power wall fitting is # 55-270-2305 at $7.91 each.

And now for the internals pricing (in white). The last four items are the Power internals, and the rest are the Poly internals...

Type of Internal       Stock #          Your Cost Each
------------------------------------------------------
Standard Adjustable    55-270-1220           11.44
Whirly                 55-270-1230           25.69
Pulsator               55-270-1240           25.69
Monster                55-270-1250           11.44
Deluxe Pulsator        55-270-1241           28.38
Deluxe Adjustable      55-270-1263           11.44
Deluxe Roto Jet        55-270-1262           28.38
Massage Deluxe         55-270-1215           31.02
Large Deluxe Pulsator  55-270-1244           28.38
Power Roto             55-270-2310           25.47
Power Twin Rotor       55-270-2315           30.42
Power Directional      55-270-2320           20.56
Power Massage          55-270-2325           30.42

Last but not least, you'll need a wrench (55-270-1300) for these jets, which sells for $5.71.

I know you're probably wondering about what each of these internals does, and aside from the name, which is somewhat descriptive, it's a subjective matter. Keep in mind that it's easy enough to mix and match the internals, and you can even easily switch them around or replace them after they've been installed.

Please consider all of the above and then revert to me with your preferences, so that I can generate a pro-forma for your perusal, and we can set about to determine your freight costs.

I look forward to your earliest reply, and to the privilege of supplying your needs.

Best Regards,

Art

8  x Deluxe Adjustable     (55-270-1263) @ 11.44 =  91.52
2  x Deluxe Pulsator       (55-270-1241) @ 28.38 =  56.76
4  x Massage Deluxe        (55-270-1215) @ 31.02 = 124.08
14 x TEE Jet body          (55-270-2382) @ 13.96 = 195.44
18 x Thread retaining ring (55-270-2365) @  2.53 =  45.54
18 x Gasket                (55-270-1267) @   .53 =   9.54
14 x Poly Niche            (55-270-2340) @  5.91 =  82.74
14 x Poly wall fitting     (55-270-2350) @  4.58 =  64.12
1  x Wrench                (55-270-1300) @  5.71 =   5.71

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your e-mail of yesterday and your call of earlier today.

Regarding our discussion pertaining to pipe dimensions, I found a good source on the internet for specifications...

http://www.harvel.com/pipepvc-sch40-80-dim.asp

As you can see, the 2.5" pipe is pretty close to that dimension I.D., but it's still not exact.

That's great that you now have adequate power. I don't think you would have been happy with the result without it.

Sealing around the pipes that will pass through the block should be done the same way that it would normally be done when you need to seal around a pipe going through a block wall. It might be something on which you'd want to consult a professional for such type work.

You asked about additional information on the floor drains, and here's a link to the appropriate page in the manufacturer's online catalog,

http://db.waterwayplastics.com/catalogpdf/page35.pdf

Glancing at the pricing in your e-mail, it looks like you've got it right, and adjusting your list for the omission of the niche, we have...

8  x Deluxe Adjustable     (55-270-1263) @ 11.44 =  91.52
2  x Deluxe Pulsator       (55-270-1241) @ 28.38 =  56.76
4  x Massage Deluxe        (55-270-1215) @ 31.02 = 124.08
14 x TEE Jet body          (55-270-2382) @ 13.96 = 195.44
18 x Thread retaining ring (55-270-2365) @  2.53 =  45.54
18 x Gasket                (55-270-1267) @   .53 =   9.54
14 x Poly wall fitting     (55-270-2350) @  4.58 =  64.12
1  x Wrench                (55-270-1300) @  5.71 =   5.71

Rounding down to the nearest dollar, we'll call this $592.00.

As for the rest of your system, I have taken the liberty of including a few things on the list below which you may decide to change or omit.

You'll see a 100 sq.ft. filter listed below. You could save a few dollars on the filter by selecting the 50 sq.ft. model instead, but given the large size of your vessel (about double the capacity of the average acrylic spa), I thought it wise to select the larger filter.

The filters load from the top, and the larger filter sits a good bit higher than the smaller one. Since the 50 sq.ft. model is still adequate for this size vessel, if vertical clearance will be a problem, this would be a reason better than saving a few dollars for selecting the 50 sq.ft. model.

I've also added a spare cartridge onto your order, even though you won't likely need it for a few years. That way, you can swap filters when one needs cleaning, and do so at your leisure.

You mentioned something about wanting a Bubbler System, so that's included below. You also mentioned that the tub would be in a cabin in the garden, but I'm assuming that this cabin will be unheated, so I've also included a Freeze Protector System below.

Depending on your climate, you can also set extra timing cycles in extremely cold conditions, so it's not like you really have to have the Freeze Protector, if you're looking for places to "cut corners".

I've included one of our ionizers (Water Purifier) on your list below, too. This is the device that allows you to eliminate the use of halogen (chlorine and bromine) sanitizers. You can read more at...

http://www.almostheaven.net/aho/ionizers.htm

Finally, I thought you might have trouble locating the flexible plumbing locally, so I added an extra roll of each size. If you have a good local source for piping, you might want to take these off the list. Between the Large Plumbing Kit and the Bubbler System, you'll already have two rolls of the 1.5" and one roll of the 2" without the extra pipe.

Whether or not you want to keep these extra rolls on the order would depend upon the exact layout you have in mind, so you might want to think about this some more.

The list below is based on using the main drains. I'd rather not guess about how we'd handle wall suctions, but I can let you know Monday what the best advice would be in that situation.

At least with the list below, you can get a general idea...

Item                                                  Item Price
----------------------------------------------------------------
2.0 HP, Full Service, 50 Hz. Pump                         495.00
100 sq. ft Cartridge Filter                               195.00
11 kW Electric Heater                                     395.00
Concrete Jet Set (as per above)                           592.00
Anti Vortex Main Drains (Quan. 2 @ $35.00 ea.)             70.00
Large Plumbing Kit                                        495.00
Four Function Air/Switch Timer, 50 Hz.                    295.00
Bubbler System                                            225.00
Freeze Protector                                          150.00
Water Purifier                                            355.00
Spare 100 Sq Ft Cartridge                                  90.00
Extra 50' of 1.5 inch Flexhose                            120.00
Extra 50' 2 inch Flexhose                                 160.00
----------------------------------------------------------------
Tentative Sub Total (not including shipping & handling)  3637.00

Regarding the suctions, I've already put a message in someone's mailbox that will be seen first thing Monday morning, so I should have some definitive advice regarding any solutions for wall mounted suction fittings then.

Meanwhile, please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions. I'll write back when I know more about the suctions.

Best Regards,

Art

Hi Paul,

That's a good point about the jets having a 2" water connection, but I don't think you necessarily need to actually plumb them with 2" piping.

If you study the plumbing schematics, you'll see that we split the output of the pump. Even though the outlet of the pump is 2", once it's split in half, 1.5" plumbing is just fine.

Obviously, you'd need 1.5" to 2" reducing bushings (adapters) for each place where you'll plumb the water pipe to a jet, but that still seems like the preferred way to do it, as compared to plumbing 2" pipe to the jets. The choice, of course, is yours, but you'll save money using the adapters, and you won't suffer any type of loss of performance, especially since your tub and equipment are so close together.

In such a case, the only 2" plumbing is the line from the tub back to the pump, and perhaps in between some of your suction fittings.

As for the end caps, I would not have forgotten them. At the last minute, I would hope that I would have realized what was missing.

It's important to understand that the plumbing layout shown in our manual is presented as a suggestion only, and your layout is likely to vary somewhat. We endeavor to supply anything that would not be a standard, commonly available plumbing part, and then, between the Jet Set and the Plumbing Kit, we include enough of these common parts to create the most basic system.

It's not uncommon that the installer has to substitute or supplement an elbow here, a tee or adapter there, to comply with the specific requirements of their situation.

If you think you might have problems finding such common parts there in the U.K., we can plan specifically for the parts you need, and we'll provide you with a custom plumbing kit, more than likely at no difference in price.

Only you know just what type of jet layout you're planning, so if you want to map it out for yourself and then let me know how you plan to do it and what parts you'd like to have, we can take it from there.

I'll let you know about alternate suction options tomorrow. Meanwhile, please don't hesitate to contact me with your further questions.

Cheers,

Art

Hi Paul,

Sorry I didn't get a chance to write back yesterday. I didn't get an answer until late in the day, and I had to leave the office early. I appreciate your patience.

In talking your situation around I learned that it's not entirely uncommon for someone to use a standard high volume wall suction in a concrete installation.

Please take a look at the attached graphic. Since you're dealing with block that's already done, I would expect you'd want to use the straight nut as opposed to the elbow one. To use one of these suctions fittings, you would knock a hole in your wall and cement the nut (10-6104 in the attached graphic) into place (obviously with a pipe connected to it!).

You might (and might not) have to slice a few threads off the wall fitting (10-3801) to make it fit flush, but that's easy enough to do with a hacksaw.

You'd need three of these suction fittings for the pump size and number of jets you've chosen, and as it turns out, in the process of checking specifications all the way around, it turns out you'd need three of the floor drains, too (I thought they were rated for a higher flow rate). Two floor drains puts you right on the margin, and it's always nice to have a bit extra.

So, do you want to have to punch three more holes through your wall, or are you going to break up the pad for the three floor drains? The suction fittings are $10.00 less than the drains, if that makes a difference to you.

Also, did you want to precisely specify the contents of your plumbing kit? If you'll recall, I said I'd let you do this, based on exactly how you plan to lay out your system.

I look forward to your earliest reply.

Best Regards,

Art

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your call earlier today.

I have some good news regarding the small pipe sections you need. Our warehouse does indeed keep such sections on hand for just such occasions as yours. What's more, we even have 2.5" sections, too. They're a bit high priced, considering what it would cost to buy a full section of pipe and cut it yourself, so you might want to compare prices to what the other fellow has offered you.

My main concern is whether they are long enough for you.

For your reference, here they are, along with our stock numbers and pricing, which will give me a head start in putting your final order together, should you decide to add them to your order...

Stock #       Description   Price Ea
------------------------------------
89-575-3461   2.5" x 8"        8.40
89-575-3436   2.0" x 8"        7.33
89-575-3411   1.5" x 8"        5.60
89-575-3360   1.0" x 6"        1.20

These are the only lengths available, so I hope that they will work for you.

I look forward to seeing your plumbing list.

Best Regards,

Art

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your call of today and your tentative order confirmation. I hope you're up for a bit of reading and for checking lots of final details!

I get cross eyed with these custom systems, considering all the parts that are involved, and I want to make certain that you will know what to expect with what you'll be getting, and to be sure that you're getting everything you need.

To that end, I'm compelled to admit a few minor discrepancies between what you see on the web site price list and what you see on the plumbing schematics, and to make sure I head off any confusion in that regard.

The plumbing schematics predate the list on the web site, and for the most part the latter is correct, but not entirely. Sooner or later, I'll get tired of explaining these differences time and again, and I'll make the necessary changes to make the two lists consistent!

Probably the most notable difference is that the plumbing schematic specifies 125' of 1.5" flexhose, but if you look on the web site price list, you'll see that it now only includes 100'.

This change was made mostly because the hose comes in 50' rolls, but also because, as you might know now that you've apparently laid out all your plumbing, 100' is typically enough anyway to go from jet to jet.

The connections between the equipment and the vessel are typically done with rigid PVC, so the flex is only needed to go from jet to get. However, if you're planning to use flex for the main connections, too, you should figure some measurements to make sure you'll have enough. While our previous list included some extra flexible plumbing, I'm assuming now that we should omit this.

In total, in addition to the two rolls of 100' flex, you will get one full roll (50') of 2" flex - half of this is part of the plumbing kit, and the other half is provided as part of the Bubbler System.

One place where we defer to the plumbing schematic list is with respect to the gate valves that will allow you to isolate the equipment from the vessel. Although the price list states that you'll get three gate valves, you will actually get four.

Three (two 1.5" and one 2") are enough to isolate the equipment from the vessel, but we give you a fourth for you to use as a drain valve (see plumbing schematic).

Don't be confused about the threaded adapters with respect to the heater connections either. You won't get them, nor do you need them. When the schematic was drawn, we were using a heater that came with threaded connections only, but the Hydroquip heaters that we sell now come with their own unions, so the threaded adapters are no longer needed, nor are a pair of unions.

Your plumbing kit will still, of course, include unions for the pump and filter. These unions make it easy for you to disconnect the component for servicing, should it ever become necessary.

The price list on the web site says you only get two 2" tees, but we include three with the plumbing kit, as per the list on the schematic. Also, although both the price list and schematic show reducing bushings and street elbows for a two suction system, since we're supplying you with three suctions, we're going to throw in an extra one of each of these for no extra charge.

Last but not least, because of restrictions with respect to air freight and as per the note on the plumbing schematic, we cannot include your PVC cement and cleaner.

These should be easily available from a local source, but be careful with respect to the PVC cleaner. Note that there is "cleaner" and there is "primer", and the latter, which is suitable for only rigid pipe connections, actually etches the plastic in preparation for gluing.

This etching action will eat through the softer flex, and that's why you can't use it. They make a PVC pipe cleaner, which does not etch the pipe, but I have to tell you that most of the professional installers that I know simply clean the pipe with a damp rag.

Just make sure, if you do use something to prepare the joint surfaces, that you use a preparation suitable for flexible plumbing.

To be sure we're on the same page, here's what will be included in your particular Large Plumbing Kit (your cost $495.00)...

Quan.  Item
------------------------------------------------------------------
100'   1.5" Flex
 25'   2.0" Flex (another 25' supplied with the Bubbler System)
  1    1.5" Slip x Slip Elbow
  3    1.5" Street Elbows
  1    2" Elbow (four more supplied with Bubbler System)
  4    1.5" Slip x Slip Tees
  3    2" Slip x Slip Tees
  4    2" to 1.5" Slip x Spigot Reducing Bushings
  2    1.5" Gate Valves
  2    2" Gate Valves
  1    Bypass Valve
  2    Unions for Pump
  2    Unions for Filter
  1    Tube of Silicone

Please look over the above list, as well as your miscellaneous plumbing parts list below, and compare these to any plumbing layouts you've been considering, and then let me know if there are any other fittings you'd like to have.

Regarding the list of miscellaneous plumbing items, as you've noted, the reducing adapters (bushings) are listed, and since we've parted out your jet set, I've also added some end caps ("spigot plugs"), keeping in mind that you need half of these to be 2" and half to be 1.5" (because of the connections on your jets).

Now here's the miscellaneous plumbing list for your consideration (stock #'s included to make it easier for me to submit your order to the warehouse)...

Quan. Stock #      Item                    Each      Extended
-------------------------------------------------------------
  3   89-575-3436  2" x 8" PVC Pipe        7.33        21.99
  4   89-270-1281  2" Elbow-Slip x Slip    5.84        23.36
  2   89-575-2015  2" Tees-Slip x Slip     2.62         5.24
 28   89-575-2424  1.5" to 2" Reducers     1.58        44.24
  4   89-575-2594  1.5" Plug (End Caps)    2.07         8.28
  4   89-575-2595  2" Plug (End Caps)      2.56        10.24

Totalling the above and rounding down to the nearest dollar, the cost of the above comes to $113.00.

As for your jet set, for the sake of simplicity, I'm adding the three suction fittings to the list below. At the same time, I'm removing the drains from the main list and adding the skimmer.

Please also note that you need a special wrench to tighten the suction wall flanges, so that has also been added below...

8  x Deluxe Adjustable     (55-270-1263) @ 11.44 =  91.52
2  x Deluxe Pulsator       (55-270-1241) @ 28.38 =  56.76
4  x Massage Deluxe        (55-270-1215) @ 31.02 = 124.08
14 x TEE Jet body          (55-270-2382) @ 13.96 = 195.44
18 x Thread retaining ring (55-270-2365) @  2.53 =  45.54
18 x Gasket                (55-270-1267) @   .53 =   9.54
14 x Poly wall fitting     (55-270-2350) @  4.58 =  64.12
1  x Wrench (for above)    (55-270-1300) @  5.71 =   5.71
3  x Suction Fittings      (54-470-5800) @ 25.00 =  75.00
1  x Wrench (for above)    (55-470-7210) @ 16.50 =  16.50

Rounding down to the nearest dollar, we'll call this $684.00.

So, without any further adieu, considering all of the above and pending any last minute changes, here's your final system pricing...

Item                                                  Item Price
----------------------------------------------------------------
2.0 HP, Full Service, 50 Hz. Pump                         495.00
100 sq. ft Cartridge Filter                               195.00
11 kW Electric Heater                                     395.00
Custom Concrete Jet Set (as per above)                    684.00
Concrete Skimmer                                           95.00
Custom Large Plumbing Kit (as per above)                  495.00
Miscellaneous Plumbing Parts                              113.00
Four Function Air/Switch Timer, 50 Hz.                    295.00
Bubbler System                                            225.00
Freeze Protector                                          150.00
Water Purifier                                            355.00
Spare 100 Sq Ft Cartridge                                  90.00
----------------------------------------------------------------
Tentative Sub Total (not including shipping & handling)  3587.00
Three Percent Surcharge for Credit Card                   107.00
----------------------------------------------------------------
Total Amount to be charged to your card                  3694.00

Keep in mind that we're picking up the freight from our warehouse to the forwarder's warehouse, and that the remaining freight costs, VAT, etc. will be due when the goods arrive at Heathrow.

Please give the above lists the scrutiny that the distance between us demands, and don't feel bad about tweaking any of the quantities. Please also don't hesitate to contact me with your further questions.

I look forward to your earliest reply and further changes or final confirmation.

Best Regards,

Art